XRCS [Withdrawn] CD 965.7.1 Time Training Obstacles 17-046

This RCS has been WITHDRAWN by the CDC 21Sept2016.

RC#: 17-046
Rule/Article: CD 965.6.1 965.7.1 (rule number corrected 3Aug2016)
Proponent: Ellen Ettenger / Combined Driving Committee
Date: posted 2 July 2016 (received June 1)

Current Wording: The Athlete will be timed from when the nose of the leading horse passes between the entry flags and the nose of the leading horse passes between the exit flags. Other obstacle penalties will continue to apply until the whole turnout has passed the exit flags. At ADS recognized events, other han Arena Trials, Obstacle elapsed time for Training division competitors shall not be provided. The five-minute time limit shall apply (see 7.3 below). Only total section times will be recorded and penalty points posted, in keeping with the intended objective for the division.

Suggested Wording: The Athlete will be timed from when the nose of the leading horse passes between the entry flags and the nose of the leading horse passes between the exit flags. Other obstacle penalties will continue to apply until the whole turnout has passed the exit flags. [delete At ADS recognized events, other han Arena Trials, Obstacle elapsed time for Training division competitors shall not be provided. The five-minute time limit shall apply (see 7.3 below). Only total section times will be recorded and penalty points posted, in keeping with the intended objective for the division. ]

Reason for Change: The intention of this exception was to discourage excessive speed in obstacles at the training division nd to discourage competitors from comparing their times in obstacles. Training level competitors are required to trot or walk only in obstacles, so excessive speed would be difficult to achieve. Also, competitors do compare their times in obstacles, they have the obstacle sheets, which generally have an elapsed time on them. It will also encourage competitors to develop their skill, to learn to rate their quines speed appropriately while making turns. It will also bring the Training Division in line with the ther divisions, where all three phases of the competition are added into the final score.

37 Response(s)

  1. Jeff Morse says :

    July 8, 2016

    It’s not clear to me if this applies only to CDE’s or if it would also apply to Driving Trials. If it does apply to DT’s Just a slight possible adjustment to this RCS: Make providing training times optional for Driving Trials. IOW, leave it up to the Organizer. I say this wearing both a competitor and a scorekeepers hat. Time is already short for a score keeper to enter all the times as it is (e.g. without having to enter Training Level times) requiring the entry of Training times will lengthen the day for all involved waiting for results. A DT is a one day affair which means folks like to get home in a timely fashion. Some DT’s will have the extra personnel to accomplish the data entry but I suspect many are operating with skeleton volunteer crews and this is an extra burden on them that affects all the participants.

    1. Zantke says :

      July 25, 2016

      Exactly !

  2. Zantke says :

    July 25, 2016

    I disagree with this RCS. For many years and for good reasons, we have NOT scored marathon obstacle times in the Training Division. I do not see any good reason to change that now. It is not only excessive speed that we want to avoid at Training Level, it is the entire concept, having to go for time in the Obstacles. We want beginners as well as beginner horses to have an easy entrance to our sport and just get their way around in the obstacles. We also do have many competitors who are a little longer in the tooth in the training division. They do not need the added pressure to perform on time pressure in the obstacles. They have enough on their hands finding their course. So please leave this as it has been for so many years. No need to change.

    1. Zantke says :

      July 25, 2016

      Further: Also for the organizer & scorer, it makes it much easier, especially beginner scorers, to have the entire Training Division where they do not need to spend their time scoring obstacles. So, if we start scoring them, it will take much longer at the end of the marathon to have our scores complete – and on two day events, where the marathon is on day two, much longer before we can present ribbons and folks can drive back home. Please leave this as it has been.

  3. Linda Yutzy says :

    July 26, 2016

    Training Level is an introduction to Combined Driving for horses and drivers. The obstacles should NOT be timed! That defeats the entire point of Training Level — which is a more relaxed opportunity for learning the sport.

    I know one of the more popular scoring programs for advanced competition does not work well for Training. That is no reason for us to change our Rules!

    1. Zantke says :

      July 26, 2016

      Thank you, Linda, exactly. Further to my posts yesterday: If the drivers want to have timed obstacles, why not simply then move up to the Preliminary level – or do ADT’s) ? There they have it – and the rest of Prelim. isn’t all that much more difficult either. Further, not having timed obstacles at Training Level shows our beginners the importance of Dressage, as in Training Level, without timed obstacles, one is able to finish the event on just the Dressage Score – as long as one drives double clean in the cones, and does not incur any time penalties on the marathon, both of which takes some efforts but then, is not THAT hard either and has the great reward with having finished just on the Dressage Score – something that is not possible on the higher levels anymore – but is possible in the ridden sport of Eventing. So I hope the proposal to time training level obstacles in CDE’s will fail.

  4. ashemont says :

    July 26, 2016

    Nonononono! As stated by others – this would defeat the purpose of Training Level.

    1. nnubbyerrickson@aol.com says :

      July 27, 2016

      I agree with all the “No’s!” I enjoy seeing my times but do not want to try and make the fastest time at traing level! It should be about the “dressage” of marathon! Not fast!

  5. levans0277 says :

    July 27, 2016

    I am NOT in favor of timing obstacles at CDEs or HDTs. If you are a competitor, you already know that you are timed in the hazards but those times are not used in scoring, nor should they be. Those times however are helpful in measuring your progress as you and your horse become more proficient at the sport so I support that.

  6. Schuster says :

    July 27, 2016

    I agree with Hardy! No! I am bringing out a four year old pony this year, and the added changes to cones has been a huge upgrade to training level. We do not need to add timed marathon hazards to the test. Keep training level for TRAINING.

  7. dwcurtis says :

    July 27, 2016

    While we love to see how we do and compare it to others, IMO, Training Level obstacles is not the proper place to do that.
    It IS the right place to learn that easy flowing routes vs sharp corners, proper bend. Where the horse/pony learns to really listen to the driver. If you want to see your time, please move up.

  8. Hilary says :

    July 27, 2016

    As a new-ish competitor I agree with the intent of having the obstacle times not count for Training level . However, I was actually provided with the times for two of the competitions in my first year and it was very helpful for me in terms of learning how to drive an obstacle to know what the times were. I drove them knowing it didn’t matter for a score, but I learned from them when I was allowed to see them after the fact. I don’t see the harm in allowing someone to see them after the competition is over. If, as Jeff says, it’s a time/resource issue for the competition, that’s entirely understandable but I needed to say that was able to learn from being able to see the times at Training level competition. It seems the wording of “shall not be provided” is what should change: What about “May be provided for educational purposes after the completion of the competition, if resources allow” – this way they are not to be considered for a placing and it will be up to the show to decide if they want to provide them. If the intent of the change request was to have times count at Training level, then I disagree.

    1. Zantke says :

      July 27, 2016

      You usually do see your times after the event on your own obstacle sheets, which at most events you get back after the event together with your scored dressage test. But the obstacle times are not scored, nor do you see those of our fellow competitors – unless you ask them yourself to share their times with you.

  9. Margaret Ross says :

    July 27, 2016

    IF IT AINT’ BROKE DON’t FIX IT! Not timing obstacles works just the way it is so leave it as is.

  10. Michele Nolte says :

    July 27, 2016

    As an “evergreen driver” I would not like to see timing within obstacles. I feel pressured enough however I can see a minimum time to keep the speed under control at training level.

  11. erobb123 says :

    July 27, 2016

    I am opposed to timing obstacles for scoring purposes. The suggester does not make a clear case for what is gained by this change. By not timing obstacles, a clean course *does not improve overall score* (although ranking may change if others don’t do as well). This means the training-level competitor is held accountable for good performances in dressage and cones. That seems appropriate.

  12. kashley says :

    July 27, 2016

    As a Training level competitor, I disagree with this proposal. This is the entry level – keeping the pressure off in the obstacles will benefit my horse by keeping me- the driver- less tense. Time enough to add more pressure when I advance up a level.

  13. Marjean McIntyre says :

    July 27, 2016

    I DO NOT agree with this proposal for the same reasons given the last two times this has been proposed. Timing the obstacles will only encourage the likely hood of dangerous driving by drivers new to the sport that have not learned how to judge turns, spacing etc in hazards and need to be able to learn those things without the pressure of “winning” making them not use good judgement as to their capabilities. DO NOT PASS THIS.

  14. Marjean McIntyre says :

    July 27, 2016

    As another note, since this was not posted until July 2, it is NOT proposed for 2017, but for 2018, correct?????????

    1. rules says :

      July 28, 2016

      This is proposed for 2017. The final Membership Review period runs from August 1 through August 31.

  15. Marjean McIntyre says :

    July 27, 2016

    All 3 phases of the competition ARE already added in for training level. They still have to make the time or they get time penalties NO? So why are you claiming all 3 phases are added in for training?

  16. Roger Cleverly says :

    July 28, 2016

    I strongly disagree with this RCS. TRAINING level should be exactly that, for both new drivers, and ‘green’ equines. Inexperienced drivers will see all the ribbons going to those that ‘hustle.’ Restricted to trot, they may attempt ambitious lines, beyond their, and their equine’s, capabilities. Next thing, we will have a carriage on its side and, potentially, a frightened and bolting animal. What is that ‘training’? Drivers that want to be timed in hazards can move up to Prelim. , as the current system dictates. Timing Training level hazards may also encourage some drivers to stay at that level, where they may win more ribbons that in Prelim. In Eventing, both in UK and the USA, equines score points for placings at each level. When a certain number of points have been scored, the animal automatically moves to the next level. We do not have enough competitors to make such a system work in combined driving, so we need to beware creating a situation where drivers choose not to move up the ladder.

    1. Hilary says :

      August 1, 2016

      I cannot speak to the UK rule but in the US event horses are not given points and may compete at any level (including winning every weekend) for as long as their riders like. The grading system for horses was abolished in the 1990s.

  17. DMcGrath says :

    July 30, 2016

    I do not agree with this proposed change on any level. Most whips do not have the opportunity to school/practice obstacles similar to those found at events. Arguably, the marathon is the most intimidating and hardest to train for phase of combined driving when starting out. Being able to navigate the course without time penalties in the obstacles is the best way to introduce new drivers/equines. What better way to build both the whip’s and equine’s confidence than to negotiate the obstacles at the pace best suited to where they are as a team? Shouldn’t this be one of our prime considerations?

  18. daves says :

    July 31, 2016

    Many prior comments have eloquently stated the case against timing Training level hazards. Regardless of when this RCS was proposed, it’s still a lousy idea and I voice my opposition to it.
    NO!

    1. EllenEttenger says :

      August 3, 2016

      I never competed at training level. When I started driving in the 70’s there was no such thing. You started as a preliminary. Regardless of the fact of how fast I was ALLOWED to go, I went as fast as my skill allowed. I feel, as I have from the beginning, that the way the rule currently is, we are assuming that drivers will not do this. Basically we are assuming that they are reckless. I think that is wrong. I have never met anyone who wants to get hurt, or hurt their horse. My feeling is that you/we are not giving people enough credit. Do you know of any other sport where rules are made “to save them from themselves”????? I don’t. If you do please let me know so that I can be better educated. If you can’t think of any other sports, then I ask you to rethink your view of this RCS.

      1. daves says :

        August 3, 2016

        Your argument lends itself very nicely to allowing Training division to canter in the hazards again, something I would like to see. Why don’t you propose that? I tried it once but was unsuccessful. Maybe you’ll have better luck.

  19. Jeff Morse says :

    August 1, 2016

    As it is now, an Organizer can offer to record and post Training level Obstacle times if they wish. There is no ADS rule or policy preventing it. I’d vote no on making it required.

    1. Muskievd241 says :

      August 2, 2016

      I too would vote to require the times be POSTED, but not counted in scoring.

    2. daves says :

      August 2, 2016

      Article 965.7.1 At ADS-recognized events other than Arena Trials, Obstacle elapsed time for Training division competitors shall not be provided. The five-minute time limit shall apply (See 7.3 below). Only total Section times will be recorded and penalty points posted, in keeping with intended objective of the division.

  20. nis75p06 says :

    August 1, 2016

    I have always been amazed that driving competitors are as prepared for the lowest level of combined driving as eventing competitors are for the lower levels for combined training. I see no reasons that the obstacles should not be timed and posted even if he speed in the obstacles isn’t used as part of the scoring. It is insulting to prepared competitors to insinuate that they cannot be trusted to drive their own drive in the training division if the obstacles are properly timed – that is, to go as needed for the abilities of the horse and themselves – but need such a rule in the first place to save them from themselves.

  21. Muskievd241 says :

    August 2, 2016

    I am NOT in favor of this. But I am in favor of posting times in the obstacles at training so drivers/competitor/athlete can assess how they are doing relative to one another and past competitions. Woud be helpful for determining when it is time to move up and out of Training. But to have the times count goes against the principle and intent of the division.

    1. EllenEttenger says :

      August 3, 2016

      My question is this. If you are not in favor of timing them, then how are you supposed to post the times? Did you mean that the score should not count, and that the time should just be taken and posted fo information purposes ?

  22. Linda Yutzy says :

    August 25, 2016

    I am opposed to this RCP as it changes the whole intent of Training Level – a low-stress welcoming level for beginner drivers and horses. If you are ready to be concerned about your time in the obstacles you are ready for Prelim.

  23. stargait says :

    August 26, 2016

    I think timing obstacles would much better prepare a person for prelim. Give training drivers more credit to do what is right for themselves. As it is once dressage is done, there is no way to better yourself in the competition. All you can do is hope someone else makes a mistake and that is not teaching how it will be when you move up. At the very least, post the times to be able to see how you are doing.

  24. porterjh says :

    August 26, 2016

    You cannot learn in a vacuum. Remember training can still only trot, so safety is not affected. But you need to create an environment where a competitor knows when they are ready to advance to another level, and that is done by comparing and scoring times. I sincerely believe we are hurting the growth of the sport, particularly youth, by not timing at training. People who are into combined driving are competitive by nature, or they wouldn’t stay in the sport. Training level is no longer a competition, and it makes the sport unattractive to competitive types to not time training. Perhaps a solution is to have the organizer decide whether or not obstacles are timed and state it in the Omnibus. Another solution is to offer two classes of training (A/B or Limit/Open) where one is timed and one is not. When I started driving CDEs, training was timed, and it was very instructive. Had it not been timed, I would have been bored and likely not continued in the sport.

  25. e.matulich says :

    August 26, 2016

    I would like to see training timed in obstacles. As a show organizer/scorekeeper I am hounded by competitors to post times so they can compare their times to other drivers and determine improvement in relative performance. Additionally, they complain that marathon is pointless because it does nothing to their score after dressage. My volunteers time training and record the information; it simply is not that big of a deal with scoring and final results. I believe timing better prepares a training level person for other levels of competition in a CDE, along with derbies and ADTs. Not timing is just inconsistent with the rest of the sport.

    I do like other comments about leaving it up to the organizer and posting it in the Omnibus. I also am a strong supporter of the suggestion that times be recorded and posted.

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